325 · Jack Schwager & George Coyle - The 3 Timeless Rules Shared by 100 Years of Market Wizards

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[00:00:52] One of the themes that, and I try to always at the end of each Marker Wizard book typically talk about what the unifying themes are, but one that has been true across all the books until this last one, and even for some traders in this last one as well, but has been looking for asymmetric trades. The secret of how these traders have done so spectacularly well is one form or another, their trading methodology is find situations where you can make three, four, even

[00:01:22] ten times what you're risking. We got to see these guys' returns. They send us their material to verify. And some of the guys that had the best sort of results, their monthly percentage returns are just, they're wild. You look at them and you think, how do they have the fortitude to wake up and trade the next month? Because it was a down 30 or 50% month. With the next generation here, was there any interview in there that you think challenged your own kind of beliefs or maybe thoughts at all?

[00:01:51] Yeah, I mean, the idea of shorting small cap stocks as a way to get success would certainly not have been on my list of, on my top 100 list of ways to do it.

[00:02:04] But to succeed, and what ultimately happens in the process is they find they love this thing and they just, it's like their work is their hobby. It has to be that type of attitude. If you're only in it, if doing all that research is work, you're not going to be, you're not going to succeed spectacularly.

[00:02:22] One is they're, they're usually pretty self-aware. They understand who they are and what they want. Two is they have clear goals. They're not confused about what they're trying to achieve. Three is they believe in themselves. A lot of times they believe in themselves when there is no evidence to support that belief whatsoever, whether that's blown up trading accounts or family members telling them you're not good at this, go do something else. Four is that they are pretty independent as people. You're not going to probably find them working a nine to five as a cog in the machine.

[00:02:52] Five, they're very passionate about trading as we mentioned a minute or two ago. Six, they're committed. They're, they're sticking with this through thick or thin. So that leads to persistence. They're all very persistent in achieving their goals. Beyond that, they're, they're very willing to pursue their dreams despite the fear of failure. So they press on, even if they're afraid they might fail and they really have an ability to focus that you don't see so much in everyday people.

[00:03:19] Markets, speculation and risk. This is the Chat with Traders podcast. Welcome back to Chat with Traders. Today's guests are Jack Schwager and George Coyle. Jack Schwager is a globally recognized authority on trading and financial markets, renowned for his groundbreaking Market Wizard series, which has educated and inspired generations of traders, investors, and market professionals around the world across titles, including the original.

[00:03:48] The original Market Wizards, the New Market Wizards, the New Market Wizards, hedge fund market wizards, the unknown market wizards, and now what's coming next, the next generation market wizards. So Jack's in-depth interviews with elite performers have become essential reading for anyone seeking to better understand the art and science of trading. His career has also included senior industry roles, such as partner at Fortune Group, a London-based hedge fund advisory firm, along with director of futures research positions at several major Wall Street firms.

[00:04:16] Jack is also no stranger to Chat with Traders, having previously joined us on episodes 27, 78, and 308. And it's a pleasure to welcome him back onto the show. Well, joining him today is co-author George Coyle. George is the founder of Triangulated Capital Management and brings more than two decades of experience across hedge funds, research firms, and family offices in roles including chief investment officer, portfolio manager, systematic strategy designer, macro strategist, and trader.

[00:04:46] George is widely respected for his deep study of elite traders, market history, and performance psychology. Through his writings and research, he has focused on identifying the timeless principles, common patterns, and decision-making frameworks shared by exceptional traders across generations. Together, Jack and George have collaborated on Market Wizards, the next generation, highlighting a new generation of extraordinary traders and the lessons they offer in today's evolving markets. This is incredible.

[00:05:15] Welcome, Jack and George, to Chat with Traders. I've got to pinch myself here because, I mean, the Market Wizards books, these are – this is timeless material. This material lives on forever. So this is incredible to have you both on. Welcome to Chat with Traders. Thanks for having us, Kevin. And maybe you should be doing my PR going forward. That was a pretty good introduction. I appreciate it. So I want to just dive straight in. How did this collaboration happen?

[00:05:48] I got an email from Moritz asking me, would I be willing to read an article from this fellow who wrote an article about Michael Marcus, who was chapter one of the first Market Wizards book. And I said, well, yeah, sure, send it to me. And I read it. It was pretty good. And then I got a – I guess I got a call from George. I forget. But just asking to do a call, and I was more than happy to accommodate him with it because I had seen his work.

[00:06:18] And we had a talk, and George was planning to do a book, which he can describe. And that – I had no intention – A, no intention of doing another book at that time, nor any thought of working with George. And I was just giving him advice, just my best advice on how to go. And I even offered to introduce him to my editor if he wanted. And I'll let George take it from there.

[00:06:47] Yeah, I said no to that initially, which seems like a bonehead move. But, you know, at the time, I didn't really have a good idea for a book. And fast forward about a year, I was trying to get my business off the ground and struggling like a lot of people do. And so I started to study the early careers of a lot of really, really successful people. So Warren Buffett, for example, he spent about three years as a stockbroker and didn't do very well at it, according to his biography.

[00:07:17] And then I found that John Bogle, you know, the founder of Vanguard, the most popular investment strategy of all time, which is low-cost, you know, passive indexing in the S&P 500, essentially. It took him eight years to get that going. So when I found all these stories, I kept finding more and more great stories. And I said, this would make a really good book. But I figured I would use so much of Jack's material. And Jack, obviously, is very well known, and I'm not.

[00:07:44] So I approached him and said, hey, what if I wrote a book within the Market Wizards universe that isn't a traditional Wizards book, but really focuses on these early stories and uses a lot of your material? And ultimately, through a series of steps, it evolved into what it is now. So a traditional Market Wizards book. Wow. I mean, that's just incredible. And, you know, doing research for this interview, really what I came to find out is, you know, Jack, when you first started writing, your first book was The Complete Guide to Futures Market.

[00:08:14] You wrote that? By the way, I heard you say, by hand, 800 pages. Yeah. Which these days you can click a mouse and write 800 pages. I can't imagine what that was like back then. But you were trying to solve a problem is what you said. And, George, your principles of great traders, you were trying to solve a problem with that as well. So it almost really feels like the perfect collaboration.

[00:08:37] It's not like you were both trying to, you know, your goal wasn't to try to be famous, sell millions of copies. The goal was, really, I have a problem I need to solve. Is that accurate? So, yeah. First of all, The Complete Guide, congratulations on getting that right. Everybody, usually, not everybody, but most people kind of think the first book was Market Wizards. It wasn't. It was The Complete Guide. And I wrote that. I took a sabbatical.

[00:09:02] I didn't think there was a good market, a good market, a good book on futures markets. This is back in 1983. And so I had an opportunity. I took a sabbatical. I took a year of sabbatical. So this, I mean, PCs, I think, consistently existed in their infancy, but not really. Right. I wasn't using them. So everything was by hand. I did use my secretary from a previous, when I was director of futures research at a brokerage firm.

[00:09:32] So I used her to kind of translate. I would record stuff and send it to her and she would type it up. So that was done. But everything else, like charts, I had to do by hand. And this was a book that was analytical. So there was some math involved. I remember literally doing multiple regressions by calculator, which is really tedious and very easy to make a mistake. So you've got to be careful.

[00:09:55] Anyway, so it took a year working really intensely morning night. And my goal was simply to write the best analytical book on the futures markets, at least at that time. And that was my – and I wasn't – I want to emphasize this. I wasn't trying to write a book that would sell a lot of copies because – Yeah. I don't know if this is my original plot or I heard it somewhere else. But the sales of a book are inversely correlated to number formulas.

[00:10:24] And I was, you know, quite aware of that. And – but like I came to this – you're doing fundamental analysis. You have to get into regression analysis. And I thought I was going to do one chapter. It turned out – well, I couldn't start to write the first chapter. Well, I can't do this. And most people understand basic statistics. So I had to write a chapter of that. And then I said, well, I can't stop at simple regression. I have to do multiple regression. Then, you know, and on and on. I ended up with six chapters and God knows how many pages.

[00:10:51] So I knew the book wasn't geared for a mass audience just because it was – it was – it had some, you know, real analysis in it. So that wasn't my goal. I just wanted to write the most thorough book. And is that when Market Wizard stepped in when you were like, well, actually, I know some guys, great traders, and this would be good for a large audience here? That didn't happen that way. What happened was I had no intention – like I said, it took a year. It was really intense work. So I wasn't planning to write another book.

[00:11:19] But I did have the idea that, gee, you know, I did know some great traders like Morris and Conner. And I said, gee, it would probably be a fun idea to go around the country and interview the world's – you know, the country's best traders. But I was a research director. That's a full-time job, more than a full-time job. So I didn't see how I could do it. And I got invited to lunch by a publisher, another publisher, and they wanted me to do a series of books. They had seen The Complete Guide.

[00:11:49] They did pretty well for that type of book. And they wanted me to do a whole series of books, you know, a book on gold analysis, a book on grain analysis, different books on different types of analysis. And I said, look, I've been there. I've done it. I don't want to do that again. But if I was ever going to write another book, I mentioned this market wizard idea. And I said, great, why don't you do it? So that was the catalyst. I didn't have the time, but I did think it would be a fun thing to do.

[00:12:17] And so I agreed, and I basically did it on nights and weekends and got it done. Did you know we would be where we are today with now just a huge series? I mean, at any given time, somebody's reading a market wizard's book. I mean, it's— I never thought of doing a series. I was just writing, you know, this one book, Market Wizards. I never thought of doing the additional ones, at least not before I wrote the first one. But the first one did extremely well.

[00:12:46] And I knew more traders, and I certainly didn't exhaust the idea. So a couple of years later, I decided to do—I would do another one. And that was the new market wizards. And then after that, like every six or seven years, I went back to it and did another one. So, George, you've studied a lot of these traders that have been in the original market wizards. Why was there that sense of curiosity there? What were you trying to solve? And doing that.

[00:13:16] Why are we curious about the things we're curious about? You know, that's a question we might not be able to answer here. But specifically, I was designing trading systems. I mean, I had always read the Wizards books and had always studied traders. But at one point, I was designing systems. And I had read the work of Ed Sakota on his website over the years and started to see a lot of what he said manifesting in the systems that I was running in terms of, well, here's what the backtest says. Here's what you actually got.

[00:13:43] And that led me to just do a deep dive on his website. And I aggregated everything I could over about 20 years in his information. And I categorized it and read it. And it made a lot of sense. And I said, well, I don't want to have to do this again. So I'm going to write this as a paper. And I started just writing sort of categorically. And here are the factors. And I said, this doesn't read very well. So I'll try to make it a Q&A. And I wound up doing that and sent it to him. And he published it on his website. It's still there. So people can read it.

[00:14:12] But once I did that, I noticed that a lot of the things that he said were inherent to robust systems were the same things that discretionary guys were saying about their trading process. So Martin Zweig had talked a lot about the trend as an important factor in trading. And Soros said the secret to his success was correcting his mistakes, which essentially is cutting his losses. So I said, boy, there's so many similarities. I'm going to pull this string and see where it goes.

[00:14:37] And I read a lot of books and articles and went back to as far as I could. Really, I wound up in, I guess, the late 1800s in terms of written work. And I just aggregated all of that mainly because I wanted to use it to guide my process. But also, so when I hit a drawdown, I'd have something to go drown my sorrows with, essentially. Like, got to go back and do the right thing. And then once that was done, I just started to enjoy doing it.

[00:15:06] I said, I've always thought Soros is interesting. Let's do him. And then Druckenmiller and Marcus. So somebody read the Marcus paper recently and said, why did you do this? You know, this is still seems like a ton of work, but I was just genuinely curious about his story, for one, because it was such a great chapter. But also just in how he did what he did. For whatever reason, I'm just naturally curious about how traders do what they do. You know, that curiosity led you here, though.

[00:15:34] I mean, for that person that asked, why did you do this? It was a lot of work. Well, guess what? You're co-authoring the Market Wizards book now because of that curiosity, right? Yeah, and I think people have different hobbies. You know, maybe mine are a little strange, but I read trading books. And for me, you know, when you see a piece of information in one book and then something else in an article and then something else in an interview or what have you,

[00:15:59] and you can put all that together and combine it and come up with sort of a larger message, it's like solving a puzzle. I don't know. I enjoy it as well. Well, you said you've aggregated all this data. You've studied like centuries of traders and you've come up with a few commonalities. These three core trading principles among great traders is what you call them. What are those three principles? And then, Jack, I'm curious if you think those three principles have applied to the next generation as well.

[00:16:29] So I'll go with the three there. Respect the price action of the market, stick your winning positions, and cut your losing positions. So pretty simple, but those are the three main things that were consistent across 100-plus years of the greats. Well, I've heard from Jack in a prior interview him saying it's better to keep things simplistic than complex. Is that right? What are your thoughts? It's to a degree. I mean, it really depends.

[00:16:56] I mean, keep things no more complex than they need to be would be a better way of putting it. Because sometimes, depending on the approach, they need to be complex. So some of the people I've interviewed in the course of the books, some famous quants like D. Shaw and Ned Thorpe, Two Brilliant Minds, they were certainly highly, highly complex. But that was the way – that was their edge.

[00:17:24] That was their methodology. So I wouldn't say you should never be complex. And in fact, when you get down to systems, if you go to systematic training, I think it's very difficult to just have a simple system that is really – not a simple system that can't make money, but one that has really good return to risk. I think it would be very difficult to do that in a very simplistic fashion, very simple systems.

[00:17:51] They may make money over time, but with a lot of volatility and risk and to get really good return to risk, I don't think you could avoid some degree of complexity. Right. You know, what I find fascinating, too, is you've mentioned there's really no single approach to the market. Yeah, so maybe with that, too, like some maybe simple, some complex, some focus, for example, fundamental, some technical, some scalp, some day trading, swing trading.

[00:18:19] You know, there's so many different approaches. And I wanted to ask you both, too, with that because the next generation, there are a few different approaches as well. In fact, there was an approach that we haven't seen yet in a Market Wizards book. Is that correct? Yeah. So you're quite right on that. So one of the themes that and I try to always at the end of each Market Wizards book typically talk about what the unifying themes are.

[00:18:44] But one that has been true across all the books until this last one, and even for some traders in this last one as well, but has been looking for asymmetric trades. The secret of how these traders have done so spectacularly well is one form or another, their trading methodology is find situations where you can make three, four, even ten times what you're risking on the trade.

[00:19:11] That's where they get their really good performance because their whole methodology is geared to when they win. They're looking for spots and situations where they can win a lot relative to the amount of risk required to prove that trade is wrong. That, in a nutshell, is the essence. Even for traders with completely different approaches, when you get down to it in their own way, they're trying to do that.

[00:19:38] They're trying to find the spot where they can have an opportunity to make, as I said, three, four, five, ten times what they'll lose if they're wrong on the trade. So that is a big unifying theme. In this book, there were a few traders who, at least at one point in their career, usually the earlier part, did come up with methodologies where they made their initial millions, which really defied that. In fact, it was just the opposite.

[00:20:08] They were doing a strategy which theoretically could lose multiples what they could make. And specifically, a few of these traders started out by selling small caps, going short small cap stocks, which, I mean, the best you can do is it goes to zero. And some of these small cap stocks, when they're in these pump and dump phases, they could go to extreme levels.

[00:20:36] I mean, it's not even unheard of for them to go up 1,000% in a day even. So there is a lot of risk there and a limited potential. So yet they made it work. And we can talk about how they made it work. But so you have that. And you also had one trader who, the second half of his career, went a large part of his trading was shorting options.

[00:21:01] And shorting options is the kind of poster child for a, you know, the old phrase is what, picking up nickels in front of the bulldozer. You know, if you see the charts, the equity charts of traders who sell out of the money options, pretty much looks like a little mountain chart until they step on a mine, otherwise known as a sharp, quick sell-off in the market.

[00:21:31] And it all evaporates because that type of strategy, the more the market volatility starts going up, the more it goes up, your position, not only are you losing your – the key is not that you're losing on your position. Is your position grows exponentially larger as the market, in this case, volatility moves against you. So it's a radically opposite type of strategy. Again, he made it work very well.

[00:22:02] But he had ways of controlling the risk and characteristics, how he made that work without stepping on the landmines. Yeah, those landmines seem inevitable. You know, there's maybe one or two in the field. I was – George, I heard you say that in an interview. There might – you know, the field might be pretty clear and empty for the most part, but one or two are kind of sitting out there. It's going to – it may happen at one point, so certainly the risk has to be managed.

[00:22:29] But, George, how important do you think it is to – that your trading system or strategy needs to be congruent with who you are, like your personality? Because, again, there were a lot of different traders in the book. In fact, I interviewed your oldest next-generation market list. He's not going to like I said that. I think he's only 40. You're only 40, Jason. But what he would say, too, I mean, he was Mr. Consistent in the book, right?

[00:22:58] Mr. Consistency. And then you had those that were shorting the small caps, you know, as well. So there's so many different paths. There's no singular path. But how important is it, George, that it remained consistent with your personality? Big nonprofit hospital systems are making billions on 340B medicine markups. Hospitals can spend on luxury perks while engaging in aggressive debt collection practices. They get rich, while patients like you pay more.

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[00:24:50] Inherently, as people, with very few exceptions, we want to buy something cheap and sell it dear, right? I think most people, including myself, come to the markets and say, well, that stock's too expensive. I'll wait until it gets cheaper. That stock's too pricey. I'll short it because it's going to go down. And that tends to be wrong. So I think it was Bill Eckhart in New Market Wizards who said something to the effect of average human tendencies are not good for trading.

[00:25:19] And I think that's true. So in some sense, I think what would make any of us comfortable would not lead to profits potentially long term. Now, that said, I think within that, there are a lot of, as you said, Kevin, ways to succeed and ways to peel the onion. And I think you need to find what works for you in terms of personality within that. And so, for example, some guys like to day trade.

[00:25:46] They can't stand holding positions and allowing unrealized losses or big changes in equity. Other guys think day trading sounds absolutely miserable. We interviewed one guy for actually a book that's going to be coming up. But he more or less said that nobody could pay him enough money in the world to spend his life in front of a screen. So you've got sort of diametrically opposed views on that. And I think that people need to find within the reality that what they're doing is probably not going to be comfortable.

[00:26:16] They need to find relative comfort within the discomfort. Otherwise, it just won't work. Yeah, I believe Michael Marcus even said that if you try to combine two traders, even if they're highly successful, but you try to combine two, you're going to get the worst of both of them. Well, I wonder why do you think that is, Jack?

[00:26:36] Yeah, because everybody has their own psychological makeup and beliefs and what they're comfortable with. So, I mean, if I think back to that first book, you have Jim Rogers. I ask him about whether he ever looks at charts because he's such a pure fundamentalist.

[00:26:58] And he says, well, if you mean like the look at the history of where it's been, yeah, but do I believe in any of this head and shoulders, mumbo jumbo, whatever, you know, it's already used. I forget the exact phrase. It's all a bunch of nonsense. Then he says, I never met a rich technician except those that sell their services. So that's his cynical view of technical analysis.

[00:27:23] Then you get somebody like Marty Schwartz who was on the fundamental side for over a decade, lost money in his trading, I think he said every year, turned to chart analysis and became spectacularly successful. And so, you know, he talks about people, not that I mentioned my interview with Rogers, but he talks about that.

[00:27:45] Yeah, I think somewhere in an interview he says something like, you know, people who criticize chart analysis and what, you know, what a stupid attitude. I mean, I grew rich as a technician. So you've got, you couldn't be more different. So the core beliefs, Jim Rogers, if he, if he went to explore charts and he could never be successful because he's such built in cynical attitude towards it. And, and Schwartz, just whatever it is about it, fundamental analysis didn't work for him, but, but technical analysis.

[00:28:15] Yeah. Everybody has their own kind of thing. And also in terms of risk, you've got this upcoming book, you've got one fellow who, well, I can, one who, one of the guys who never had a losing month or at least not back. Well, we could, we could verify 11 years. And before that, he was a prop firm, not a prop firm, a family office. He still had, didn't have losing months, but we couldn't verify that. But in any case, just every month he makes money.

[00:28:42] But he is really, he is so risk averse. I mean, forget about having a losing month, which he never had. I mean, for him, a losing day is a really, you know, hopefully a rareish event. So you have that attitude. Then you have people who, a couple of people in that book who kind of went from accounts, relatively small accounts to, two of them got up to like literally half a billion dollars approximately.

[00:29:10] And they didn't do that by, by keeping the risk down to a fraction of 1% per day, you know. So they had a much bigger risk appetite, which led to some significant drawdowns along the way. But it also made it possible for them to get to the spectacular amount of money they made. So again, you have to have the right attitude about risk to do it that way.

[00:29:35] And the one who, the trader who never had a losing month, he would not be, he couldn't trade that way. He has to kind of keep it super, and he doesn't hold positions. He does not hold positions overnight either. So again, different personalities, different psychologies, different talents, different interests, different beliefs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, which means that you've, you've, to be successful, you've got to find the approach of work speed. Yeah.

[00:30:02] It may, like what I'm hearing is maybe you don't necessarily have to look, you need to look within, you know, you need to look within because a lot start out and they want to look outwardly or try to emulate somebody else. But a couple of things I want to touch on there. George, you had written this in the book as well. You said there's two types of profitable traders. And Jack was discussing this as far as you have those who, there was a lot of volatility on the equity curve. But then you had Mr. Consistency, who's just not, not very large drawdowns at all.

[00:30:31] You said there's two types of traders, those who generate exceptional returns and those who excel at capital preservation. I was, I'm curious with that. Do you think there's a way to balance both of those into a trader or your one or the other? Yeah, that was in my preface. And I don't know that the capital preservation types were really what we were thinking about with the Wizards, just to be clear. I was more speaking about myself.

[00:30:58] I'm better at protecting money as opposed to making tons of it. Can you balance somebody who makes money? It's funny. I listened to the Reminiscences of a Stock Operator audiobook on my morning walks. And there's a line, and I don't remember the specifics. The names wouldn't matter because these guys are 100 years dead if they were ever real. But the main character, who's essentially Livermore, is saying,

[00:31:24] some people have the money-making instinct and they often have big swings. Other people have the hoarding instinct. And sometimes you'll get people with both and they die disgustingly rich. So I think they're out there. I think it's just rare because, for the most part, I think what it takes to have gigantic compound annual growth rate returns that are also scalable requires you to take big ups and downs.

[00:31:51] And that's sort of the antithesis of let's protect capital. We got to see these guys' returns. They send us their material to verify. And some of the guys that had the best sort of results, their monthly percentage returns are just wild. You look at them and you think, how do they have the fortitude to wake up and trade the next month because it was a down 30% or 50% month? So anyway, to your question, I'm sure some exist, but I think it's tough.

[00:32:19] People tend to usually either be in a make tons of money and experience lots of all the things that are protecting. Just to be clear, there's shades of gray. So if you think of Jason Barry, who you interviewed, he has almost no down months at all. So that's exceptional. And Rick Bendesian is the other one. Yeah. We really never have down months. These guys are like cash registers. It's like having a W. I know. It's incredible.

[00:32:45] But then you'll have those that take $5,000 and turn it into, what, $100 million? I mean, high volatility. Kevin, I would say they work. I think in this last book as well as in the previous Marketways books, there are people who kind of blend it. They do very well. I'll give you one example of his current book, Lance Breitstein. I mean, well, he was a prop firm originally.

[00:33:13] Trading started out with small amounts, but then went on to trade, left that after 10 years and traded his own account. But ultimately ended up like at $100 million. And along the way, I don't believe he had any large drawdowns. He certainly wasn't making money every month like a couple of the other guys, but he made a ton more money. So I think there are people who kind of blended to two. They didn't make really good sums of money and still had reasonable drawdowns.

[00:33:42] Or do you think even, too, as they get older? Is it Ed Sakota that says there are those who are bold and those who are old, but you can't blend the old and bold together? Is that the one? That's a typical Sakota line, man. Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:00] So with today's – the young traders you guys have interviewed, do you think that there's a certain edge that may exist in today's – I guess the landscape of today that – I mean certainly didn't exist back with the original market wizards where – with technology and access, maybe the speed. Do you think – can you identify certain edges? Yeah, I don't know if the edges have changed. I mean they're always different.

[00:34:26] I think of a couple of traders in this book who, let's say, made good use of 13D reports, really getting into the thick of it and finding situations where they had information. Not information that's available to the public. It's just the public doesn't dig into it like they did. So – but that existed all along.

[00:34:53] It's just, you know, in this case, some of these traders, that's the type of information that was instrumental in making their initial millions. So I wouldn't say it's so much a result of technology. I mean the technology comes in, of course, naturally. You get to review a thousand charts or something like that. It wouldn't have been practical when you had to chart them by paper or something like that. So that's a consequence of just technology.

[00:35:21] But it's nothing unique, really. It's – I think that would have been true for 20 years now. And George, do you think with the three principles you've laid out, do you think they apply in like an AI-driven world? Do you think they apply universally? I do. I mean there's exceptions. Chris Camillo from Unknown Market Wizards didn't use stuff. He didn't really cut his losses. Although I read his book and he bought options. So in theory, he's limiting his risk in some capacity.

[00:35:51] But I think it's – the principles are more the rule than the exception. And one thing I found from studying all of the traders and doing these interviews is there are always going to be exceptions. There's always going to be almost every rule. But I think for me personally and for the masses, we would probably be better served to find out what's more and more prevalent and go with that because the exceptions are the exceptions, right? So, yeah.

[00:36:19] Did you think that – going through all the wizards over the years, Jack, do you think there's – that traders have to experience losses, drawdowns? Even in this book, there were some level of blowups of early accounts. Can a trader start their journey and just kind of smooth sail?

[00:36:43] Or do they have to learn those three principles George points out to respect the trend, to cut your losses, let your winners run? Is that something that's learned or is it more like innate? Well, it's – well, first of all, some – the number of these market wizards who obviously by there being a book have performed spectacularly well.

[00:37:05] The number of them that experienced early failures in many cases, complete failure, complete blowouts, and in some cases multiple complete blowouts is much higher than one would think. So that is true. However, not all – not all of them had that experience.

[00:37:29] I think there are a number of ones who were successful kind of out the bat, never had a really – really – like I think Michael Platt of Bluecrest is a good example of that. I think he was just successful from the beginning and just never had that experience. But that's the exception. I mean they're – for the most part, most of them did experience some episode early on that was a – if not a wipeout completely – a drawdown that took them to the edge.

[00:37:59] For example, Paul Tudor Jones never literally completely wiped out. But as I tell the story in the original Market Wizards, he had one trade where he literally – after doing quite well – literally lost two-thirds of his assets on one trade in a few days. And he did come to the brink of quitting. He just – he could have gone either way.

[00:38:27] There might not have been a ball to the Jones that we know. So it was a very close call. So even if they didn't blow out completely, most of them did experience some traumatic trade early on or along the way. And there are a few exceptions. Can I chime in on that for a sec?

[00:38:48] Phil Gittiker, if I pronounced his name right, to me personally, it's probably one of the closest things I've ever seen to a natural-born trader if there is such a thing. And there's just something in his mindset. He still wiped out twice. So let's keep that in mind before he went on to huge success. But his mindset was just, this isn't working. I should stop. And for me as a trader, not that I'm a Market Wizard, I'm not. But it took years to get to that level.

[00:39:17] And I think for a lot of people, it takes months or years if they ever do it. So the fact that he got there very quickly, I just found interesting. And I think it was just inherently the way his mind thinks about things that's sort of different from most other people. But even the guys that I believe are sort of born with a temperament that's suited to the principles still lose money early on for whatever that's worth. Yeah.

[00:39:43] So with the next generation here, was there any interview in there that you think challenged your own kind of beliefs or maybe thoughts at all? Yeah. I mean, the idea of shorting smaller cap stocks as a way to get success would certainly not have been on my list of my top 100 list of ways to market. And you, George? Yeah, I would agree.

[00:40:12] I talk about the trading literature or scripture since I read so much about trading. And if somebody came and said, hey, I got this great idea on how to make money. We're going to short small caps for day trades. And we're going to make a fortune. I just said, hey, you read it wrong. You're not supposed to do that. So the fact that not one but multiple of them made a lot of money doing that was very surprising and kind of taught me that there's –

[00:40:39] there was another guy too who made a bunch of money in agriculture. And I had never really seen anybody make a lot of money in agriculture. And so those two things in particular, it was like these are things that I thought maybe weren't impossible but close. And yet here they are succeeding at it. So the exercise of writing the book and doing the interviews was certainly eye-opening and taught me that there's probably somebody out there doing something that you don't think is possible. They're doing it very well. Yeah.

[00:41:09] Go for it. You mentioned the trader. This is interesting. The trader, he's talking about the ag. This is one of the two guys who got to around a half a billion. And he literally made his early years, the first four, five, six years, trading not only ag futures but ag future spreads. So, you know, if you told me somebody's going to start out with a small – well, he had saved – I think he did that.

[00:41:38] In this case, he did save up $7 billion that he made while he was trading for a prop firm. So, but if you could tell me that somebody was going to parlay that into a half billion in trading agriculture and future spreads predominantly until the later years, I would have not thought that would be possible. Yeah, that's incredible. So with the next generation here, what was the criteria, if you will?

[00:42:08] Did they need to be under 40? What was the criteria when it's like who's going to be in the next generation? Yeah, age wasn't a criteria. It was a preference. Yeah, yeah. We came across somebody who was absolutely perfect but didn't fit the age. So I think he's the oldest guy. I mean, I turned 50 after we did the interview. So if you were going strictly by keeping people in their 30s and 40s, it would not have been possible.

[00:42:37] And of course, since we're looking for people with track records of at least 10 years, there's a limit to how young they can be. Although I think at least one trader was in the 20s still. So age wasn't the criteria. It was no different than all the other market wizard books. There are two ways somebody gets chosen. One, they take a relatively moderate amount of money and turn into a large fortune. That's always a good story. And two is they have phenomenal return risk.

[00:43:06] So the two people in the book who have this almost even no losing months or almost no losing months, their returns are not in terms of dollars. They're not spectacular by any means. But the fact that they just turn the markets into a money machine that they live off of, that's the story. So it's wonderful. Wow, that's incredible. And George, your thoughts on that? We didn't set out to write this book. So it's... It just kind of came to you? Is that what you said?

[00:43:35] It just kind of came to you? Well, no. So we... And this is in the preface. People can preorder now and get the first two prefaces in the first chapter. But we're going to write a second book that's going to come out in about a year and a half, two years, something like that. And when we originally started doing interviews, we were focused on hedge fund guys as well. So we ultimately decided that we were going to do this book on independent traders, most of whom wound up being younger.

[00:44:03] And then the second book is going to be hedge fund guys. But essentially, because of that, it's not like we said, hey, let's set out and let's find traders who are under 50 who have achieved great things. So it just sort of worked out when sifting through the big volume of different people that we were looking at. And as I said earlier, the original idea wasn't even to write a wizard's book. It was early struggle. So it kind of evolved. One thing Jack told me is that the wizard's books are sort of...

[00:44:31] Jack, correct me if I'm paraphrasing this wrong, but they're like a dragon. And you're riding the dragon and you're kind of steering it, but it's kind of going where it goes. If you want to speak to that, Jack, but it's... Yeah, basically that's right. So it kind of evolves and it becomes what it becomes throughout the process. So we didn't set out and say we're looking to capture traders that are plus or minus 25 to 30 and that's it. It just went that way over time. Got it. Got it.

[00:44:59] What do you think that the young people in this book have that impresses you or maybe they do really well at that some... Maybe some older market wizards don't do well at? I mean, is there something that you can see with the younger generation where they really succeed? I think it's still the same things as my books. A majority of them are super hard workers.

[00:45:25] It's the fault of, in my mind, not the way I want to live my life. If the fellow of no losing months gets up at like 4.30 a.m. to check the pre-market situation and his last look at the markets is around 8 p.m. Yeah, it takes a couple of breaks during the day, but that's your life in front of the screen. So, that's an example of hard work, but it's by no means the only one.

[00:45:56] I mean, you read this book and you will see that a number of these traders just lived market analysis and trading. I mean, that was their life. They just were constantly researching and constantly working, including weekends, including holidays. And they would come in. If they worked at a prop shop, they would even come in on weekends to sort of go over their trades.

[00:46:25] And so, there was no free time and sometimes no vacations. So, this hard work ethic was very prominent in this book, but it's been there from the very first book as well. So, do you think there needs to be a level of passion? That's a common theme I've heard in a lot of the interviews. Like, a lot of these guys who succeed in this industry, they have passion. This has to be something you really enjoy.

[00:46:53] And you get that message from these people. It's not that they're doing all this work and it's drudgery. You know, it's drudgery. Even if it's going through, you know, 13D reports, which would not be most people's idea of a fun time. But for them, it's like a treasure hunt, finding the pieces of information. And so, yeah, to have that type of devotion, to be willing to commit that much energy and time and a large chunk of your life to this,

[00:47:23] you have to actually love the actual endeavor. It's not about the money. I mean, they may, in some cases, people are motivated to get into markets because it seems like a path to possible fortunes. But to succeed and what ultimately happens in the process is they find they love this thing and they just, it's like their work is their hobby. It has to be that type of attitude.

[00:47:49] If you're only in it, if doing all that research is work, you're not going to be, you're not going to succeed spectacularly. And that's your experience too, George, right? I mean, your hobby is your work, vice versa. And was that your experience with the market wizards as well? Yeah. Asher? Yeah. Jack made me think of a, it's a Coda quote, which I think came from the first book, but it's, great traders don't have the talent, the talent has them, which I think is pretty accurate.

[00:48:18] This is, this is, I think, what these guys, while they're trading, some of them are walking away from it, but while they're trading, it's really what they're living for. And it's, you know, people say like God, country core, I think trading would be very high up on their hierarchy of priorities in life if you were to ask them. Wow. Yeah. So what's up? What do you think there's, there's a critical quality amongst the market wizards?

[00:48:45] What, what is it that one quality that you think of off the top of your head stands out to you, Jack? What's that quality that they possess? And there are a few exceptions, very few, but if you had to name the single most important unified theme, it would be risk management. So not the methodology, not the trading, not the research, but risk management. I would say if you asked every person I've interviewed, what is the most important thing about trading?

[00:49:15] I would put money on the single answer that would turn up the most would be risk management. Okay. I want to follow up on that, but George, go, go ahead. I thought you were asking more about their personality traits as opposed to trading methods. So maybe I misunderstood your question. Yeah, go either direction. Give us one of each. This is Kevin. We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. If you are, take a second to leave a comment. We read them all and truly care about what you think.

[00:49:41] And if you haven't yet subscribed to our email list, visit chatwithtraders.com and click subscribe so we can keep you posted on information that matters. Now, back to the chat with our guest. I think if you're thinking of personality traits, I have a list that is in the book and I have it here, but I don't think it's one thing. It reminds me of another Sokova quote. I'm like a parent of Sokova, but a lot of what he says is true. But somebody said, what's the most important part of a trading system?

[00:50:09] And he said, I don't view a single part as the most important, just as what's more important, your liver, your heart or your spleen. I mean, so I think they all function together. But these guys and prior wizards have a lot of sort of common personality traits. And I can go through them if you'd like or you tell me. Yeah, go for it. Well, I had that quote here, too. It's fascinating. There's no best car. There's no best spouse. It depends on the individual.

[00:50:38] And Sokova also has right here about the only one thing is for sure is that there isn't a sure thing. I mean, he was brilliant. I mean, with the quotes and just absolutely brilliant guy. But go for it, George. Yeah, let's dive into that a little bit. I guess the same way that the principles are inherent to most wizards. There's always exceptions, but they're personality things. And they are one is they're usually pretty self-aware. They understand who they are and what they want.

[00:51:07] Two is they have clear goals. They're not confused about what they're trying to achieve. Three is they believe in themselves. A lot of times they believe in themselves when there is no evidence to support that belief whatsoever, whether that's blown up trading accounts or family members telling them you're not good at this. Go do something else. Four is that they are pretty independent as people. You're not going to probably find them working a nine to five as a cog in the machine.

[00:51:34] Five, they're very passionate about trading, as we mentioned a minute or two ago. Six, they're committed. They're sticking with this through thick or thin. So that leads to persistence. They're all very persistent in achieving their goals. Beyond that, they're very willing to pursue their dreams despite the fear of failure. So they press on even if they're afraid they might fail. And they really have an ability to focus that you don't see so much in everyday people.

[00:52:03] So I think those, as far as my research, are the most common personality traits of really traders, market wizards or others. Jack, your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I would also – I mean, there are quite a number of others, but one I think that is really critical, and I think it's true just about all market wizards, is they have flexibility in their thinking.

[00:52:32] They're not tied to the idea. I mean, yes, they put on a – what is the – I'm trying to think that Peter Brandt has a good way of putting it. And I'm forgetting the phrase exactly now. I think I remember it. Is that strong opinions, weakly held? Yeah, that's it. Strong opinions, weakly held. See, George knew it just from the vague description I was giving.

[00:53:01] That's exactly the key to it. So they have an idea. They really believe in it. They put on a trade. But if the market action or do's or whatever dictates that the idea is wrong, they're quite able to abandon it. They don't continue to hope.

[00:53:24] They have this incredible flexibility to change, including going the other way. So you'll find a number of stories in the market wizard books where a trader thought one way and then comes up repeatedly and then ends up realizing they're wrong and doing the exact opposite and that being one of the best trades they've ever had. Wow. So that's a common occurrence. So this is very, very important.

[00:53:53] And that's why a lot of people just by their psychological makeup would not make good traders because they're not willing to admit they're wrong when they're wrong. So remaining unbiased, you know, objective. That's what I wanted to touch on with you, Jack. You said strong opinion, weakly held, and you were speaking on fundamentals earlier. And I heard you in another interview.

[00:54:21] It really resonated me when you said this because you had started out. Of course, when your journey with you, you started out more fundamental because that was your background at that time. But then you said you kind of went like you started to lean towards technicals. And the reason for that, which I want you to dive into, is like you think about like a company you're saying. You have a strong opinion or a company has great intrinsic value. And to you, almost to the trader, it feels like, well, I'm getting a better bargain price.

[00:54:50] So you can just constantly add, add, add as the value, you know, drops. Because in your mind, well, this is going to gravitate towards that intrinsic value over time and be worth more. What are your – I want to hear your story and your thoughts on that. Fundamentals, risk management tied to technicals versus – Yeah, exactly. That's exactly – and I think it's a very important point. And it's not – I want to preface it here by saying that I'm not knocking fundamentals. I'm just stating what I think is the reality of the structure of the markets.

[00:55:20] And there are plenty of people I've interviewed who used only fundamentals who are very successful. However, fundamental analysis by its very nature is almost difficult to risk management. So as you kind of alluded, because you talked about it. So you have a company, let's say a company is trading at $50 and you go through for fundamentals and this company should be worth $80, right?

[00:55:49] So you go along at $50 and looking for $80, let's say, okay? Then it goes down to $45, $40. Nothing has changed fundamentally, but it's down to $40. So, hey, if it was a good price, if the fundamentals said it was worth $80, now when it's $40 instead of $50, it's even better upside potential.

[00:56:11] So the irony is with pure fundamental analysis, if nothing fundamentally changes, the more the market goes against you, the more you should want to put on, which is the exact opposite of risk management. Whereas most, if not almost all technical analysis, if the market goes against you, it sort of automatically negates the reason for being in the trade.

[00:56:35] If you take a very simple example, if you're a trend follower and market breaks out on the upside and you go long or the market has a crossover or whatever and you go long, then if it goes against you, that crossover goes the other way. The breakout turns out to be a false breakout. The methodology itself argues that you're wrong, but fundamental analysis is exactly opposite. So it's a built-in difficulty with that.

[00:57:02] And so from my own experience, I found that because of that, it was very difficult for me to use fundamental analysis because I had no way of telling you, you know, when to get out. And when I started using chart analysis, and this is kind of, I remember, people ask me sometimes, what was your best trade? And it's never, it's not a trade.

[00:57:25] And I think back my best trade, I remember back a trade way back when I had just early on, you know, just started trading very small amounts of money. But when I started, this was when I switched over to chart analysis. And I remember it was the back then was the D mark. It wasn't the euro. And the euro didn't come on for decades later. And the D market sort of had a long slide and going into like a six month base. It looked like a bottom.

[00:57:53] And so I kind of looked at that. I said, yeah, you know, kind of this should be enough. And it's been building a base. And I kind of anticipated it would break out on the upside. So I went long and I put a stop in like, you know, 15, 20 ticks below the low of the base. And then one day the market went down sharply, hit my stop. I was knocked out. And the great thing was that after that, for the next few weeks, it just kept on going down.

[00:58:19] And that is, that I always think back as kind of my best trade because I was dead wrong. I lost only a small amount of money. And if I hadn't had, you know, the risk management, it would have been a large loss. So that's like a personal example. I love that because, I mean, the best trade you're thinking of is the loser, not necessarily what most would think is the winner. George, do you have a take on that, the fundamentals versus technical risk management applied?

[00:58:47] Yeah, I mean, I don't want to repeat what Jack just said, but I agree mostly with what he said. Actually, Kelvin in the book, Kelvin Chu, he says essentially the same. He says that fundamentals can be helpful, but they have no risk management. So I think that's the right take. You know, if you're a fundamental guy and it drops, logically, you should buy more if the reasons you own it haven't changed. So, but what do you do if it just keeps going down?

[00:59:16] And I guess people could limit their risk by saying position sizing, but that opens a whole can of worms of sort of Wall Street versus LaSalle Street. How do you look at risk? How do you size positions? And probably more than we want to get into today. So I'll support what Jack said. Yeah, I'd like to add sort of to be fair here. I was thinking the other side while George was answering.

[00:59:36] So about on the fundamentals, like think of a pure fundamental, one of the pure fundamentalists I interviewed, predominantly pure fundamentalists, Martin Taylor, who started out as an emerging market type of stock trader and eventually branched out to also trade regular larger cap stocks. But so I remember when I interviewed him and he just enormously successful.

[01:00:06] He built his various funds at about seven, eight billion and decided to give the money back because he didn't want to bother investors and just kept a billion of his own money. And so a few clients or friends that he allowed in. Anyway, so at the time I interviewed him and he was the trader just to give the context. He was a trader who a bad drawdown for him would be like high teens, teens. Those were like his worst drawdowns.

[01:00:33] And at the time I interviewed him, interestingly, he was in one of those drawdowns. And he had he had one position on that was responsible for most of the drawdown. And he was long. He was long Apple. At that time, before the certain splits, I think it was like maybe 350 to going down to 350 or something like that. And he was so convinced on the fundamentals. And he can't be like saying he was a pure fundamentalist. And he really did his work.

[01:01:01] But to him, it was clear as could be that Apple could have to would have to go up because he's that this is back in 2012. And he kind of foresaw that the earnings, the forward earnings that people were projecting were basically based on their growth in largely U.S. and so forth. Was not taking account that Apple was going to explode globally, particularly in China and other places.

[01:01:27] And he saw that those estimates were just woefully inadequate relative to the true global growth Apple was going to see. So not only he was not concerned about that Apple position at all, I think he might have even been adding. So that sounds like the antifascist of risk management in a way it is. But the only way he controlled that is by limiting the position to a certain percentage.

[01:01:52] I think the extreme percent he would put in the position would have been Apple at that time, which might have been around 15 percent. So he had to be it's not going to go to zero. So he has to just keep his risk management for the idea. Well, this one position, I really totally believe in it. I've got 15 percent of my money in it, but it's not going to go to zero. It's not even go down 50 percent. So the position can only lose a certain percentage from that realistically. And I'm willing to hold it.

[01:02:21] That's the way he achieved the risk management. And by the way, six months after that interview, I think Apple maybe even doubled it. It had just gone. He was totally he was 100 percent right. He was also incidentally short rim at the same time, the BlackBerry company. The rim at the time was 50. I remember these things, you know, eventually went to the bilge, I believe. So, you know, that's a long and a short and completely convinced of both.

[01:02:50] And, you know, couldn't be more right. Well, it sounds like you just need to have a high level of conviction, right? Yes. That's the place where I don't want to come off sounding like you can't use fundamentals. There are, you know, here's an example of a guy that does fundamentals, doesn't have risk management of a sense of we typically talk about it, but he achieves it through limiting the position to a certain maximum amount of his portfolio. Well, it comes back to this quote I've heard you say, Jack, which the 10 words of advice.

[01:03:20] Do you want to say? Yeah. It's just knowing where you're getting out before you get in. And if you know that, you know, fundamentally or technically, I mean, that you're going to be managing risk, right? So one of the quotes that came to mind, too, in regards to this was William O'Neill. So he said, the secret to winning is not being right all the time. It's losing the least amount of money when wrong. I love that quote.

[01:03:46] So George, I wanted to ask both of you, really, but just if you can think back on all the interviews from the next generation, is there just the most memorable moment for you in it? There's something in this, there's a number of things in this book which haven't in many other books before. One of them is an anonymous interview. I did, in one case, have an interview where, if you want to get in the attention, we can,

[01:04:13] but I ended up not being able to use the interview. But I kind of completed or just asked the trainer if I could just use one little section, which I agreed to, and it's like two pages, something called Trainer X or something like that. So I did have a little snippet of an anonymous interview, but I never had a full interview anonymous in the book.

[01:04:38] And in this book, we do have one because the story is so spectacular and so compelling and interesting. And I figured, look, nobody would know if I had his real name, nobody would know him anyway because he's completely under the radar and he's just a private individual, right? So nobody would know. So what difference does the name make? It's a story that counts. It's, you know, the story is accurate. The story is true.

[01:05:03] And this is a fellow who was a musician and was in one of the country's top music schools and dropped out, then found, discovered, passionate about music, but then discovered trading. He was passionate about trading and decided, then dropped out like a year before he graduated from music conservatory to just focus on trading.

[01:05:31] And the story goes on from there. And he's one or two people who kind of got that at nearly half a billion mark. So that story to me was the—it's also, if not the longest chapter in any Market Wizard book, it's close. I think Market Wizard was a very long chapter, but it's up there in one of the longest chapters ever. Of course, the story is very interesting.

[01:06:01] It has a lot of ups and downs. And he ends up with a philosophy that I find quite interesting, which is looking to basically give back money to his various verlangent reasons. Was it challenging to get that interview? Or was he reluctant at all? He was clearly—well, for one thing, kind of had his lawyer draw up like a nine-page document, which we had to request changes. Oh, wow. Yeah.

[01:06:31] It'd be incredible. You know, for the secrecy of it, yeah. I thought of mine—just sorry, it took me a minute to think of it—but Lance, who's Chapter 2, he was describing one of his mentors, and I don't want to name this guy, but he talked about the guy and where he had worked and where he had gone to college and he had lived in Asia. And as he's describing this guy, I'm like, I know this guy. I sat next to this guy for five years. So at one of our breaks, I said, was this this guy? And he's like, yeah.

[01:07:00] And it was like, holy smokes, small world. You know, we—the guy that was his mentor is the guy that I sat next to for five years. So that was probably the biggest coincidence and thus memorable thing from the book in terms of just came to mind right now. Well, you both have studied elite performers over the years, and it's led us to this book. I'm so excited for it. Been reading it myself. It's incredible.

[01:07:26] It comes out June 9th, 2026 here. Well, I wanted to ask too, George, because you've got a lot of really great papers out there. Where can they find your work, George? I think the best place to start is to go to X, formerly Twitter. My handle is GFC4, and I've got a link tree there that links to a lot of the different things I'm doing, including the papers and other materials and the book. So that's the best place, I think, to go to find the central hub for George.

[01:07:57] Okay, perfect. And then, of course, you guys are already working on the next Market Wizards book. Is that correct? No, it didn't start yet. I haven't started. So what happened, as George said before, we had too much material for one book and sort of thought about, well, how do we divide it in some logical way? And the most logical way seemed to be solo traders versus hedge funds.

[01:08:20] And so we've had a few of these hedge fund interviews that we've done, and we'll obviously have to do more to fill out that book. But we have, you know, I don't know, a third or a half of the potential raw material there. In some cases, we've actually written chapters. In other cases, we've got the interview, which hasn't been transformed yet in two chapters. Well, Jack, every time you think it's the last Market Wizards book, there's another one on the way.

[01:08:49] So maybe we'll get another, what, five or six more over the next 10 to 20 years or so. So, hey, gentlemen, this has been excellent. I mean, just last words over to you guys. What's, if someone, for the person reading this book, you know, what's one lesson you really want them to grab from this book when reading it? Start with you, Jack. Well, I'm going to be unconventional here. Let's take it kind of in the opposite direction.

[01:09:17] Is one thing you'll see in this book is that a number of these traders ultimately came to conclusion that as successful they've been, that they just didn't want to, even though they continue to churn out money just by, and it seems like a loss not to keep trading because they're not trading or devoting time to other things is going to take away from them making, highly likely making more money. They still decide that they want to use their life in some other direction.

[01:09:46] They've done the trading bit. They've been successful. They got more money than they need to live on for the rest of their lives. They want to do something else. So, you know, I think an important lesson is there's more to life than trading. I mean, as long as it's your passion for what you want to do, go for it. But keep in mind that that's not all of life. And for whatever your case may be, that may not be the direction you necessarily want to go. Or if you've gone that way, you may not want to stay that way.

[01:10:15] So I think it's important to have an overall perspective. There's more to life than trading. And over to you, George. If you incorporate consistent principles into your process, whether it's discretionary or systematic, I think you have a much greater chance of survival. And that's what it's about. So I would say find a way to cut your losses as you learn and you'll save your money. You won't lose it all.

[01:10:43] Cut your losses and stick with the principles. Stick with the principles. I love it. That's a consistent theme here. And also something I took away from the interview as well is there's no singular approach. So many of these market wizards had different approaches and found their own success. While sticking to George's three principles. So thank you so much for coming on. I mean, the market wizards is timeless material. It's going to live on for generations.

[01:11:10] And hopefully this video as well that traders can go back and watch and learn from. So again, thank you, Jack. Thank you, George, so much for taking the time. Thanks, Jack. You've reached the end of this episode of Chat with Traders. But rest assured, there are more episodes loaded with real market insight and zero hype on the way soon. So to stay updated with each great new release, subscribe to the podcast. And we'd love it if you leave a rating and review. We'll catch you next time on Chat with Traders. Chat with Traders.